Complete Transcript of Network Capital's Podcast with Ashish Dhawan
Complete Transcript of Network Capital's Podcast with Ashish Dhawan
Mental models, career principles and productivity techniques
In this Network Capital podcast you will learn
1. Mental models for building a meaningful second career
2. Art of being a contrarian
3. How to combine distinct strands of thought and create something unique
4. Deep-dive into India's education challenge along with implementable ideas to bring about change
5. Critical importance of human capital development
6. Nuances of building a career in the development sector
7. The difference between important and urgent
Ashish Dhawan is the Founder and CEO of Central Square Foundation (CSF). He worked for twenty years in the investment management business and ran one of India's leading private equity funds, ChrysCapital. In June 2012, he left his full time role at ChrysCapital to start CSF. Ashish is an M.B.A. with distinction from Harvard University and a dual bachelor's (B.S./ B.A.) holder with Magna Cum Laude honours from Yale University. He is on the India Advisory Board of Harvard and a member of Yale's Development Council. Ashish serves on the board of several non-profits including Akanksha Foundation, 3.2.1 Education Foundation, Teach For India, Centre for Civil Society, Janaagraha and GiveLife. As Founder and CEO of CSF, Ashish hopes to bring a fresh impact-based approach to philanthropy in India. He was recently recognised as the NextGen Leader in Philanthropy by Forbes India.
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00:13
hi Ashish
00:15
welcome to Network Capital y on skype
00:17
thanks for having me it's my pleasure
00:20
entirely Ashish I've known you now for
00:22
nine years and it's such a pleasure to
00:25
host you on this podcast today we're
00:27
gonna talk about your career principles
00:30
your mental models and the way you've
00:33
built a second career I still remember
00:36
the first time I met you and you'd come
00:39
to give us a guest lecture at yif and
00:42
you touched upon three things one was
00:45
the power of compounding second was how
00:48
you managed to get deep work done in an
00:51
era of distraction and third was how
00:54
education has been a constant in your
00:58
life from Saint James to today so you
01:02
know nine years out I'm gonna still
01:03
gonna focus on these three elements and
01:05
expand on that so let's get started are
01:08
sheesh tell us a bit about who you are
01:10
just a very short snippet because many
01:13
of our listeners are not from South Asia
01:15
they'd love to hear about what you do
01:18
yeah thanks of course yeah you clearly
01:21
have a great memory you know nine years
01:24
of recall that's phenomenal
01:26
you know by quick background as I grew
01:28
up in Calcutta I went to school there
01:32
and then I went to US for college and
01:34
worked very quickly in private equity
01:38
loved the investing business and then
01:41
eventually I moved back after business
01:42
school to India in 99 early nineteen I
01:47
set up a firm called Chris capital and I
01:51
was there for about 13 years
01:52
so all cold between the u.s. and India I
01:55
had about 20 years in finance and
01:57
investing and you know by as you said
02:02
education has been one of the constants
02:03
in my life and I always had this idea in
02:06
my head that when I was 30 I wanted to
02:09
be an entrepreneur which I accomplished
02:11
when I found it Chris capital and
02:13
that in my mid forties I wanted to have
02:15
a second career Benjamin Franklin had
02:18
always been a role model he had had like
02:20
seven or eight careers and had done so
02:23
much in one lifetime that you know I
02:26
finally made it happen
02:28
in my early 44 a little bit ahead of
02:30
schedule and so for the last eight years
02:33
education will what I've been primarily
02:36
been working on I'm a founder of Ashoka
02:39
as you know which is how we met and then
02:41
the founder of Central Square Foundation
02:44
which works on education reform and both
02:48
these projects started sort of eight ten
02:50
years ago so that's really what's
02:52
consumed my time and then I have a few
02:55
new initiatives that I started all
02:57
philanthropic in the last two to three
03:00
years so that's been my life in a
03:02
nutshell yeah no thank you or she's sure
03:05
so let's start from st. James you were
03:08
interested in education and wanted to
03:11
build a career in education since then
03:13
but I believe your mom or had a
03:17
different idea how do you remember that
03:19
conversation how did you take it yeah so
03:23
it's funny you know I first say I love
03:26
math so I I really loved my math teacher
03:31
and you know he was a user a nice man
03:33
who encouraged me a lot I also had a
03:36
wonderful principal who had me because I
03:40
was a reasonably good student I I we had
03:43
this one day when I went in taught
03:45
middle school it was a class called
03:48
Matt's is fun so outside the curriculum
03:50
does tricks and things like that you
03:52
know I had a blast doing it my
03:55
grandfather had been really good at math
03:57
they used to teach me math so there was
03:59
something about this you know when I
04:02
discovered that I was a reasonably good
04:04
akira which my grandfather was and
04:08
people i looked up to were you know I
04:10
went back to my mom at home and said you
04:13
know Mom I think I've discovered my
04:15
passion I want to be a teacher I love
04:18
math I think I could be a great match
04:20
wow these kids sure I can do it any
04:24
grade and she
04:27
ooh cold water on those green by saying
04:30
listen that's all fine but you know I
04:34
know that you also have other ambitions
04:36
and so why don't you know you just stay
04:39
focused on at that time I was studying
04:41
for the IIT for all getting into an Ivy
04:44
League college and and then we'll think
04:46
about this later and and you know focus
04:49
on first having a corporate career and
04:51
then worry about this later so I would
04:53
say it was temporarily suppress it
04:56
wasn't killed in that probably the right
04:59
thing for me because I was also equally
05:01
passionate about the world of business
05:03
and that's the part I went down for the
05:06
next few years right
05:09
um how was you what did you learn there
05:12
yeah so look Yale is a great liberal
05:15
arts college coming from a traditional
05:18
Union High School you know I had a very
05:21
narrow education Yale blew my mind cuz
05:24
they just opened up a window just so
05:28
many disciplines it made learning really
05:31
exciting and you know and also just I
05:35
became more of a global citizen and I
05:39
learned you know a number of skills but
05:43
above all I think there was something in
05:46
the air at Yale which was about spirit
05:49
of public service you know it was there
05:51
is something beyond just going to Wall
05:53
Street making money it's something
05:56
beyond just your personal goals which is
05:59
you know the objective to serve humanity
06:02
to serve your country and you know
06:04
there's so many smart kids I spoke with
06:07
who are my peers who were like you know
06:09
I want to go and intern with a a judge
06:12
or I want to go work for the senator on
06:14
Capitol Hill or I want to go work for
06:16
this think-tank or I wanted to work for
06:19
an NGO but everybody was just in that
06:22
rat race to go get the highest salary
06:24
and that just boggled my mind which
06:27
which felt like everybody should be
06:29
trying to go into the highest paying job
06:32
and in fact one summer or one internship
06:37
I did work at Brooklyn and what the
06:40
chance
06:41
verax
06:41
goes to Capitol Hill a bit and actually
06:44
like the quintic people they were quite
06:46
smart
06:46
but eventually I sort of really like
06:48
markets and Wall Street and I ended up
06:51
there in fact in one of the highest
06:53
paying jobs
06:54
partly because I had a loan and I was
06:56
break into a fight for my scholarship
06:58
pay off the loan but partly because I
07:00
did love the world of finance but I what
07:03
I took away from Yale was I think this
07:05
love for learning a belief that liberal
07:07
arts education is really important which
07:10
help you not just make a living but you
07:14
know live a life and importantly this
07:19
idea of public service I think those are
07:21
the takeaways for me yeah
07:24
so I'll sheesh a few weeks back we
07:26
hosted on our podcast a professor from
07:28
Yale
07:29
Helen loans room oh I don't know if she
07:30
was there when you were there or not but
07:33
she spoke about she talks were open
07:36
democracy a lot and she talked about
07:39
something very similar and something
07:41
that makes here and some of the other
07:44
universities there stand out is the
07:45
spirit of public service and I think you
07:49
have tried to build it in in many of the
07:52
institutions you found it since in India
07:55
I just want to just move forward and
07:58
talk about your wallstreet
08:00
days while you were there in the first
08:03
couple of years I remember once you were
08:05
telling about the rigor and discipline
08:06
teaches you amongst other things
08:08
but despite the busy hours you still
08:10
took time out to volunteer and Beach how
08:14
do you balance both and what were the
08:18
foundational investments these first
08:20
five six years away from India teach you
08:22
and set you up for success in future
08:24
yeah so I'm saying first and foremost
08:27
what Wall Street taught me was just
08:29
discipline a real work ethic and
08:34
perfection you know I worked you know
08:38
every day through one or two a.m. and I
08:40
was back in the office at 9:00 a.m. I
08:44
mean work consumed my life and every
08:47
Saturday was the same schedule maybe
08:49
left a little bit earlier so one could
08:51
go out a bit but Sunday's I was working
08:53
two not a full day but
08:55
so and I was single I I was willing to
09:00
sacrifice spending time with friends I
09:02
met a lot of friends at work as well but
09:05
really my goal was to Hoover up as much
09:07
as I could in terms of knowledge and and
09:10
understand the ropes and there was a lot
09:11
of work there's a demanding work place
09:13
so the hours were grueling but but I was
09:17
not complaining because I was enjoying
09:20
what I was doing and I was learning a
09:21
lot so I think that I would say I was
09:26
very lucky that my first job was one
09:29
that was really tough it really that
09:32
work ethic was instilled in me from that
09:35
point onwards a second is just very
09:38
demanding bosses I mean you know I know
09:41
a lot of people believe in oh we
09:43
shouldn't have as much hard
09:44
accountability you know we believe in
09:46
empowerment and I do too but I think the
09:48
accountability is really important we
09:50
need you know objectives and key results
09:52
we need to thrive we need to show
09:55
displeasure at someone's work that's the
09:58
only way the work improves and I
10:00
remember my first deal that I worked on
10:03
as an investment banker a young guy was
10:05
to modeling the breakup of dun &
10:08
bradstreet which is Ethernet and S&P 500
10:10
company brand I worked I pulled off two
10:13
all-nighters and I produced a pitch book
10:15
that was like a hundred first pages in
10:17
those days you had to stand by graphics
10:19
who did all the fancy chart for you got
10:22
it found took it my boss Lew Friedman
10:25
was a terror and you know he flipped
10:28
through it and I could see his face
10:29
turning red and then he ripped the book
10:32
in front of me and toasted it for me and
10:34
the binding hit the corner of my head
10:36
him I mean I didn't damage anything but
10:40
he just shouted and screamed at me and
10:42
you know and in that moment I felt like
10:44
I was like oh my god I came out of
10:47
Yale I worked my ass off to do this and
10:50
you know this guy doesn't even
10:51
appreciate the work I've done but you
10:54
also then told me what he expected and
10:55
you know if I look back and I thanked
10:58
Lou because he just raised the bar or
11:01
for that matter I had a boss who any
11:04
memo I wrote he would just shred it the
11:06
bitch you know and
11:09
he taught me how to write a good memo so
11:12
I think having really high standards and
11:15
tough bosses is something I really
11:18
appreciate and then the thing about what
11:20
not to do is also what I learned right
11:23
which is it was a very selfish culture
11:27
very individualistic as a young person I
11:31
could see that I was not I mean yeah I
11:35
did take time out to go teach but
11:37
honestly it was a small bit of time it's
11:39
more just to keep my interest alive I
11:41
mean which is one day of the week I
11:43
carved out some time in the morning and
11:45
and a colleague of mine life would go
11:48
and do this at an underprivileged school
11:51
but really what I learned was more the
11:54
rest of my firm was really focused just
11:57
on making money on doing yields on and
12:00
they in the process became you know
12:04
people who were very arrogant who were
12:07
very money minded and didn't care about
12:09
the little people around it and really
12:11
treated them like little people and I
12:14
could see that I was becoming a person
12:16
who I didn't like I was becoming
12:18
arrogant bought them for this game for
12:21
and so I I I wanted to get out of Wall
12:25
Street so I I think what I also learned
12:28
was you can have high standards but you
12:30
can also have a good culture you can be
12:33
a nice person
12:34
and you should have a well-rounded life
12:36
and aspired I have a good family life as
12:40
opposed to one where it's all work and
12:44
everything else just falls apart that's
12:46
something I clearly did not write I
12:51
remember you also talked about the
12:53
importance of leaving at the right time
12:55
I came and saw you the day I was leaving
12:58
for business school and he talked about
13:00
some of your learnings there and some of
13:03
the mistakes to avoid
13:04
could you just reflect on what you
13:06
learnt at HBS and how did it shape your
13:10
thoughts about your career if at all yes
13:13
I firstly you know HBS happened after
13:17
I'd worked two jobs I've been out in the
13:20
workplace for three years
13:22
I think was a good time because I as I
13:25
told you I had worked you know grueling
13:27
hours I've been investment in private
13:29
equity it was a chance to meet lots of
13:35
people from around the world so I think
13:38
the network was phenomenal and you know
13:41
I'm a curious person like you interested
13:44
in not just doing business elsewhere but
13:46
in cultural language I'd learned some
13:49
Spanish when I was at Yale I I took the
13:51
chance to learn Portuguese when I was at
13:53
HBS on the side I had a Brazilian
13:56
girlfriend I went to Brazil five times
13:58
so I fell in love with Latin America and
14:02
a lot of European friends and started to
14:06
like some of those cultures so it made
14:08
me a real global citizen this one too is
14:12
I may be you know understood that HPS
14:17
was more about I mean the case studies
14:20
were good and maybe the chance to sort
14:24
of put you certain the shoes and many
14:26
other leaders but I think more than
14:28
anything else it gave me self-confidence
14:30
gave me the confidence that I could if I
14:32
had this degree I could take risk and I
14:35
had a family to back me up I should be
14:37
taking rest my dad was not an
14:39
entrepreneur but I felt that I could be
14:42
a normal and the third is it gave me a
14:45
lot of time to to reflect you know and
14:48
think about where I wanted to go you
14:51
know with my life and and so that's when
14:54
I decided that I wanted to be an
14:56
entrepreneur age 30 I what did i'm ii
14:59
Korea gave me the time to in a sense
15:01
chart my journey and and I know
15:03
something's happened serendipitously but
15:05
I would say as best as one can if you
15:09
can have some good person start working
15:12
towards them so more likely than not to
15:14
achieve good they may get delayed by a
15:17
year or two or may get advanced by a
15:19
year or two but at least you have a good
15:21
force and so through business school I
15:23
also had the chance to start working
15:25
towards my first goal post which was to
15:27
start a private equity business in India
15:30
I did three field studies connected with
15:33
India I've gotten all the faculty
15:35
who were doing work in India who were
15:37
then very supportive as advisors I in
15:40
the process discovered a mentor who was
15:44
willing to support me as I got my fund
15:46
up and running and my former boss I
15:48
really use it yes also it's a stepping
15:51
stone that time not only to figure out
15:55
what I wanted to do but really in a
15:56
sense get prepared for entrepreneurial
15:59
life and I leverage the network quite a
16:02
bit I mean I'll give you an example when
16:04
I did the field studies you know I would
16:06
stay up along with my partner Raj who
16:09
then started Chris capita with me we
16:11
would stay up to people in the morning
16:13
and you know we'd make these trips to
16:15
India and in the guys who were new study
16:17
I mean I was writing a case for instance
16:19
on India or doing another field study on
16:21
bankruptcies under the guise of these
16:24
field studies we wrote to mr. Tata
16:27
tadam Graham who is finance minister and
16:30
we were entrepreneurial enough to play
16:32
the 80s card actually meet all these
16:34
people and so really use it also as a
16:37
tool for networking in India because I
16:40
never worked to be other than a couple
16:41
of summer internships in India and yet I
16:44
wanted to start a private equity
16:45
business in India so I was smart also
16:48
about I would say how I leveraged HBS to
16:51
launch my business Connor when you
16:56
started your private equity it was the
16:59
first or among the first what was your
17:03
expectation that what was the potential
17:05
of the market and now with the benefit
17:08
of hindsight what are some
17:10
unconventional bets that you took at
17:12
that time that served you well and
17:14
others some mistakes if you want to
17:16
reflect on yeah so you know I mean look
17:20
I started in early 99 we've gone through
17:23
the Asian financial crisis which hit in
17:26
97 98 so people had written off Asia
17:30
right and I know it was more of an East
17:32
Asian Southeast Asian crisis but from an
17:35
investor standpoint I mean Asia was a
17:38
write-off at that point and then India
17:41
Pakistan did the nuclear test in 98 so
17:44
coming into late 98 early 99 the New
17:47
York Times was printing articles
17:49
this is the most dangerous place on
17:51
earth but an Indian popular South Asia
17:54
yes it's in that context that I was
17:56
trying to raise the fun it was really
18:00
hard it was really hard I mean I would
18:02
say for every 100 meeting you know we
18:05
had like a 98% rejection rate people are
18:08
like are you stupid to do this thing in
18:10
India you know Asia just blown up on us
18:13
and in India is a dangerous place it's
18:16
not appropriate place to put capital to
18:19
work subscribe it's untested having said
18:24
that I always believed that you know
18:26
India had gone through macro horn 291
18:28
often takes time for macro to trickle
18:30
down into micro like the period we're
18:33
going through now India was going
18:35
through a little bit of a crisis in the
18:37
late night we're going through a credit
18:39
cycle and I know we thought it was a
18:42
good time to start a business because
18:44
I've always been a contrarian and so
18:47
yeah I mean I think if we started then
18:50
made lots of mistakes and my idea from
18:52
the beginning was growth capital I said
18:54
India is going to grow faster than most
18:57
of the economy all entrepreneurs are not
18:59
going to sell you their business but
19:01
they'd be happy to dilute and give you a
19:03
stake or minorities thing and you became
19:06
a partner it will help them grow the
19:08
business that resonances I think where
19:10
we got diverted which is where you made
19:12
a lot of mistakes with dot-com 99 2000
19:15
and that oh yeah we'll do minority but
19:18
we'll apply here and that just blew up
19:20
cause calm never really materialized
19:22
there it was too early for the internet
19:24
at that point but what really worked
19:26
were the more of the real-world
19:27
businesses so I invest in business
19:30
called spectrum mine which we weren't
19:31
the first BPOs I invested in UTI Bank
19:35
which became access Bank very early on a
19:39
whole bunch of industries where we were
19:41
early to call them and then we also very
19:44
flexible investor I did a lot of pipes
19:46
which is private equity in public
19:49
companies and we wanted the first ones
19:51
to do it in convince investors that with
19:54
the right format for India so lots of
19:58
learning lots of mistakes but in that
20:00
process what I learned was that the
20:02
growth capital model
20:03
was the right one trivia and having
20:05
flexible long-term capital with a huge
20:09
sustainable advantage current you talked
20:13
about being a contrarian and it's
20:15
something that that is developed over a
20:18
period of time how did you hone your
20:22
skill of being a contrarian in in a
20:26
complex market like India and are there
20:30
some tips that you'd like to offer who'd
20:32
like to for others who might be
20:34
listening in yeah I think one is your
20:38
contrarian by nature you have to sort of
20:41
Zig when everybody else is lagging right
20:43
so it's almost like you revel in the
20:47
fact that you have a different opinion
20:48
okay now it can't always be the case
20:52
because it works against you but I've
20:54
read a lot of buffeted and you know the
20:57
other iconic investors and so one is I
21:00
was always I mean I focused more on
21:03
value and less on price when price went
21:05
up you know I was clear to me that there
21:10
were few about this right when price
21:12
went down
21:12
most people psychologically like oh my
21:15
god I'm losing money I was always like
21:17
this is when price goes down bargains
21:20
are available so my mind actually was
21:22
the tool through this reading is seeing
21:25
to actually looking out for price
21:27
declines as opposed to you know becoming
21:31
afraid when price defined and having an
21:34
eye on value which was the most
21:35
important thing so understanding that
21:38
price value equation knowing that value
21:41
is permanent price is ephemeral the hard
21:44
being a contrary to is and you got to
21:47
separate yourself a bit from the news
21:48
cycle you know I think those who are I
21:51
was initially in Bombay and Bombay is a
21:53
little bit of a rumour mill but I hate
21:55
it to be part of that room on there or
21:57
even everyday you know I don't look at
22:00
my phone and track news and and I think
22:04
that just gets you caught in the new
22:06
cycle and in you wallow in other
22:08
people's thoughts versus just having the
22:11
time to think clearly for yourself I
22:13
think actually coming to moving to Delhi
22:15
was a big one
22:17
is away from bankers and research and
22:20
listen you know you have the time to
22:22
think you meet fewer people you go and
22:25
meet them on your terms in Bombay as
22:27
opposed to being part of that community
22:29
if it allows people to think
22:31
independently and not be part of the
22:33
news cycle a third is to have the
22:36
healthy skepticism of experts I mean I
22:39
I've never I mean I I value expert
22:42
opinion but I I don't I'm not gullible
22:45
let's put it this way and I mean what
22:47
I've learned is experts frankly often
22:50
have their own incentives I mean if you
22:52
are running a private equity fund or
22:55
mutual fund you always incented to say
22:59
that the markets going to do well
23:01
because you want to attract more
23:02
investors into your fund and so you're
23:06
never going to be intellectually honest
23:07
or same thing with a research analyst
23:09
you know it's so big I mean I would
23:12
always try to understand people's
23:13
incentives management you know the same
23:16
is true but there are some people who
23:18
are truth tellers popping there's no
23:21
reason to lie he cares more about what
23:24
people think of me intellectually then
23:26
trying to sell something to someone and
23:28
so are people like Howard Marks and pull
23:31
a bunch of other people in the other
23:32
people like I do so figuring out who are
23:34
the experts who are the truth tellers I
23:38
think was very important and then just
23:40
keeping a focus on reading like reading
23:43
about companies but sectors and just you
23:47
know making that the bulk of your day as
23:50
opposed to getting caught in the news
23:54
the way at least I train myself to be a
23:58
contrarian I think the most important
24:00
last point is just having control over
24:02
your own emotions I mean those who have
24:04
investors will realize that you know you
24:06
you I mean you do get invested or
24:11
emotional about companies or about your
24:14
idea and I think having that attached
24:17
detachment I think is very being able to
24:20
you know go down to 0-3 to understand
24:25
companies but also go down to 30,000
24:27
people look at them skeptically from
24:28
time to time
24:30
and I think building that skill is
24:32
important and it comes through a
24:34
combination of reading and thinking and
24:37
at the same time meeting management and
24:40
talking to people which is the zero feet
24:42
so so yeah it's it's training and it's
24:45
it's it's not just intellectual training
24:47
I think it's emotional trading one point
24:50
right I also remember you after your
24:54
first guest lecture you asked us to read
24:56
the letters that Buffett rights to his
24:58
their shareholders and all of us went
25:01
back and read them in one of the lines
25:02
that I remember is that a lot of a
25:05
success is being achieved because we are
25:06
I think intensely rational or something
25:09
that's what he said
25:11
thanks for laying out these principles
25:13
Ashish in this section I just work
25:17
conclude this section by asking when you
25:19
were stumbling upon success being a
25:22
contrarian as an investor did you have
25:25
you know the goalposts in mind the the
25:28
forty gold post that you set for
25:31
yourself
25:31
forty five and if yes did you have a
25:35
like you know like a year-by-year
25:37
assessment of what you wanted to
25:39
accomplish so that you could maybe get
25:41
on to your second career buy it by the
25:43
time you're 45 and something no I would
25:46
say no first five years was more about
25:51
survival you know I had started a fund
25:54
we went through a tough period when
25:57
the.com crash took place I was not sure
26:00
we would be able to be second point I
26:02
had to ensure that companies were doing
26:05
well like God exists
26:06
I was able to raise second fun I got
26:09
Harvard and Stanford his two key LPS and
26:11
that fund and so and then the third
26:13
point he sort of cemented ourselves a
26:15
little bit then it was about also
26:17
getting the right theme the right size
26:19
the team we got there the partnership
26:21
track so I would say the first few years
26:24
throws an intense focus on just building
26:28
business if I didn't have that I
26:30
wouldn't be able to liberate myself I
26:32
need it not only an actual freedom to go
26:36
on to my second career but I also wanted
26:39
to make sure I build something that
26:41
could outlive me
26:44
and for that you know I had to work
26:45
really hard on building the foundation
26:47
and ensuring survival so I would say the
26:50
first five to seven years were more
26:52
about that when we were in a more
26:54
comfortable spot I sorted the 2005 six
26:58
period is when I started talking at
27:01
least internally to my colleagues joking
27:03
they'd look someday I want to do
27:05
something different and the thought
27:07
re-entered my mind and you know I we
27:11
raised money quite a bit of money in
27:12
2007 we exited a large so we timed it
27:15
very right into cycle and then we had
27:17
the downfall we played that quite well
27:20
but I actually went and returned capital
27:23
to investors in late 2008 2009 just
27:27
saying look you guys going through a
27:28
hard time we waste a lot of money and
27:31
partly I was able to do it because I
27:33
knew that look I I wasn't focused on
27:36
just greed and making the most you know
27:39
for myself in that window but really
27:41
also you viewing it as a period where we
27:43
could get sort of this up partners to
27:49
understand that we were looking out for
27:51
their interests that we had a real deep
27:53
bench at push capital and that it was
27:56
not just reliant on me and so yeah I
27:59
would say that I ten years into starting
28:02
the firm is when I started acting upon
28:04
this idea that I could have a second
28:07
career and then by the time it was 2010
28:10
is when I announced him early and to my
28:13
investor that I was going to move on and
28:16
then actually had a year-and-a-half
28:18
transition period before I could move
28:21
into my new career she should one have
28:25
backup plans I think so I think look I
28:31
I'm not a big believer in a plan B in
28:35
that you first just go for planning a
28:38
sort of burn your bridges and go for it
28:41
right otherwise you can never be an
28:42
entrepreneur if you always have a back
28:45
plan for everything but you know there's
28:47
a worst-case plan which is even when I
28:49
started Chris Capital I always looked at
28:52
it and said what's the downside you know
28:54
I I'm lucky I have a degree from Yale
28:57
and
28:57
from Harvard Business School I doubt if
29:00
I'm permanently gonna be out of a job
29:02
I think I have some skills I have a
29:04
network so I've started with capital if
29:09
it feels I can always go work somewhere
29:11
now I don't have to plan that out to
29:13
figure out where I'll go working so I
29:16
mean I plan B which is simply I know I'm
29:19
not gonna be on the streets I know I've
29:21
got at least in my case I knew I could
29:24
live with my parents for free so I had
29:27
the ability to tide it out for a while
29:31
and go do something else so that just
29:35
you know in a sense it wasn't a detail
29:38
it was just like you know what's the
29:39
worst I mean and when your mind thinks
29:42
like that did look the downside isn't
29:44
that bad at the end of the day at least
29:46
you would have learned a lot you give it
29:48
a shot and then you'll sort of figure
29:50
things out so yeah I've always had that
29:52
mindset which is a fixed plan B yeah
29:56
this is such an important tool to keep
29:59
in mind and a very useful mental model I
30:01
must say Ashish a lot of people come to
30:03
us or network capital asking exactly
30:05
this question and now I'm gonna point it
30:07
point them to this podcast
30:10
Ashish I just want to move on now and
30:12
explore the education space because once
30:16
you began your second career in a
30:18
full-fledged fashion education has been
30:21
one of the order primary area of focus
30:26
what is your thesis about looking at the
30:31
education challenges in India I know
30:33
it's a very great question but I want to
30:36
start at that level and then dive deep
30:39
into specifics yeah so firstly I think
30:45
you know education is sort of at the
30:48
bedrock of social reform and an economic
30:51
transformation you know we know that if
30:54
you're better educated you will be more
30:57
productive citizen we know that if you
31:00
had educated you will evolve socially as
31:04
a society you'll at all and some of the
31:06
ills tradition and and else will call
31:10
aside
31:11
you're more likely to educate your
31:13
daughter the view educated you know
31:15
things like that so we know it's at the
31:18
bedrock and investing in human capital
31:21
is so critical we also know that you
31:25
know for countries that enter look sort
31:28
of middle income status it's even more
31:31
important I mean when you're dirt-poor
31:32
you're just focused on doing the very
31:35
very simple things like like India in
31:38
terms of opening up its economy trading
31:41
you know taking it's already skilled
31:43
people in making them more productive in
31:47
that stage it is building very simple
31:49
infrastructure getting the incentives
31:51
right etc now I think we're at the stage
31:55
where we ate 2,500 our per capita income
32:00
you know the factors of production have
32:04
cut in the line but as we start to get
32:08
up to five ten thousand dollars per
32:10
capita income what you realize is that
32:12
if you don't invest in your people you
32:16
get stuck in middle income trap and
32:19
that's what happened with a lot of
32:20
countries if you look at Latin America
32:22
Latin America you know did very well and
32:25
was the Promised Land in the 16th and
32:28
17th then things went sideways largely
32:31
because you know they didn't invest in
32:34
education and then of course the
32:35
politics didn't work out very well and I
32:37
think the same is true in Asia where
32:39
look at countries that really invested
32:42
in education like Japan and Korea
32:45
they're our first Asian countries that
32:47
really took off and became developed
32:49
countries other than Hong Kong Singapore
32:50
which is small city-state so I think
32:53
it's evident that education has high
32:56
payoff particularly at a certain stage
33:00
of development India had entered that
33:02
stage of development and so now over the
33:05
next 15 years it's absolutely critical
33:08
that we solve for this human capital
33:11
deficiency because if we don't we will
33:14
be another Mexico or Latin American
33:18
country that'll go sideways as opposed
33:21
to breaking out and becoming a developed
33:24
country someday
33:25
so for me you know it's partly fashion
33:29
the fact that I always wanted to be an
33:31
education it partly what's right for the
33:33
country given at this stage of
33:35
development it's so critical and it's
33:38
partly the fact that we know that it's
33:40
the bedrock societal and economic a fish
33:46
in the chapter that you've written in
33:48
mr. Khan's book you talk about lifting
33:51
up the tale and investing in
33:53
foundational learning are these the
33:56
bedrocks of investments and decisions
34:00
that you've made in Central Square
34:01
foundation and some of the other
34:03
initiatives that you helped set up yeah
34:08
everything else it often you learn by
34:12
doing we did a number of things in our
34:14
first five years at CSF and I mean if I
34:18
was smarter maybe you could have dawned
34:20
on me earlier and I would have focused
34:21
on just this is the core from the outset
34:25
but yeah I mean I think we instinctively
34:27
knew this was most important but I think
34:30
when we started to narrow the focus is
34:32
when we made it our number-one priority
34:34
in a sense so yes foundation learning is
34:39
critical I think we just look at the
34:40
data it's obvious that by third grade
34:43
somewhere between 50 to 75 percent of
34:46
the children are falling behind whether
34:49
it's on the metric or reading writing
34:51
basic arithmetic you know about
34:55
two-thirds of the children are falling
34:57
behind and once they fall behind they
35:01
fall behind permanently because if you
35:03
can't if you don't love learn to read
35:06
you can't read to learn you know there's
35:08
that important transition in third grade
35:10
I'm learning to read to reading to learn
35:13
- you're the door shut with you you
35:17
can't transact the fifth grade textbook
35:19
if you can't read you can't do fractions
35:23
and algebra if you don't understand
35:26
addition and subtraction multiplication
35:28
division these are building blocks so we
35:32
think it's absolutely ensure for the
35:34
country to focus on this the data so and
35:37
then if you look at
35:39
other countries that have succeeded you
35:41
know why was Korea so successful we're
35:44
invested in a big way in foundation
35:47
irresolute you see in the sixties and
35:49
early seventies korean india corner the
35:52
same per capita income at that time
35:54
Korea made this investment and then
35:57
Korea to cause Viet Nam has been doing
36:00
this of late no Vietnam has prioritized
36:03
rotation let me see let me see
36:05
and it's no surprise you can see it in
36:07
the data export many facts it's not
36:20
coming dream I think one is recognizing
36:23
within it if you want children to
36:25
continue and want them to be able to you
36:31
know silver in terms of very very clear
36:35
if you can invest because most jobs in
36:38
India don't require a higher ed degree
36:41
most jobs don't require high school
36:43
degree I mean when was the last time you
36:46
use trigonometry or calculus or log
36:50
agents oh yeah or logs or coordinate
36:53
John I mean you don't frankly the
36:55
moisture if you can just read write
36:58
speak confidently if you can do basic
37:02
math and be logical in your thinking and
37:05
not get fooled in terms of you know
37:08
basic financial stuff you're more likely
37:12
to succeed in life so I think that's why
37:14
the foundational is so critical current
37:19
has India managed to lift up the tail
37:21
and in your work what have been some of
37:25
the major challenges in lifting up the
37:28
tail and improving learning outcomes so
37:30
I think look firstly it's a question of
37:34
prioritization I think India has not
37:37
come out till very recently till the new
37:39
education policy came out in draft form
37:43
last year and finally got finalized eel
37:47
is that you know we've now called out
37:50
never
37:51
I believe in the past to say
37:53
foundational learning is the number one
37:54
that's very clear and even we put it
37:56
that we've even put a timeline to it
37:58
saying by 2025 we want to achieve
38:02
success which is the majority of I have
38:05
achieved this I think this is meant that
38:07
firstly it's a question of prioritizing
38:10
it recognising its most important clue
38:12
is we need measures we need independent
38:15
data we need to know what that goal is
38:17
and you don't know we know with literacy
38:20
there is a ladder and so you can measure
38:22
it at every stage our children
38:24
recognizing letter our children are able
38:27
to decode words are they do they have a
38:31
minimum vocabulary can they read the
38:32
sentence and they read at a certain
38:35
speed all reading fluency can they read
38:38
with comprehension and they write so
38:41
there's a ladder at every stage same
38:44
thing with mathematic and having a goal
38:46
overarching goal for every graded train
38:49
you know Peru is the most improved
38:51
country and Pisa the president got up
38:54
and said in second grade children should
38:56
be reading 40 words per minute in third
38:59
grade 60 words per minute every teacher
39:01
every parent in the country knew that
39:03
goal and then it went about then
39:05
measuring every month every teacher
39:07
would measure formative assessment and
39:09
they had strategies for children reading
39:12
10 words per minute 20 words per minute
39:14
and they've eventually achieved huge
39:16
success so I think you need to have the
39:19
goals you need to measure and then move
39:22
accordingly third is we need the tools
39:25
you know we need simple tools like
39:27
lesson plans for teachers the training
39:31
for the teachers the the sort of
39:34
scaffolding around formative assessment
39:36
for them to know what to do any stage a
39:40
children are falling behind so
39:42
strategies around lifting the tail so I
39:46
think with with teachers who are most
39:48
important we need to provide them these
39:51
tools so that we can bring about a
39:52
change and training so that we can
39:54
change the classroom transaction because
39:56
if that doesn't change nothing will
39:58
change I think that's a third very very
40:01
important piece and then fourthly
40:04
you know in terms of the curriculum and
40:07
adding in though already has a
40:08
reasonably good grade let me just need
40:10
to you know make sure it's
40:11
age-appropriate simplified put into
40:16
chunks so that it's easy for the teacher
40:20
to understand what you're going to
40:21
measure at each stage and it's and it's
40:24
achievable you can actually transact
40:25
that curriculum and it starts at the
40:27
right point I think I curriculum often
40:30
is over ambitious I think we can do a
40:33
few of these things and get the system
40:34
aligned around this but it's the number
40:36
one priority that will make basic
40:39
resources the teacher is already there
40:41
it's a question of saying I'll make sure
40:44
that the teachers have a teacher guide
40:45
with the lesson plans
40:46
I'll make sure children have workbooks
40:48
and make sure the the classrooms have a
40:51
basic library so if I want children to
40:53
read those things cost like three four
40:57
hundred rupees per child on top of what
40:59
they're already finished so it's not a
41:01
huge expenditure and and I think it's
41:03
very achievable in the next five videos
41:06
right and so this I mean they're two
41:09
points I want to explore more one is the
41:11
importance of heading having a goal
41:14
which is very clearly understandable so
41:16
us you've written about the fact that
41:19
they've had say state to state
41:21
comparative federalism to augment goals
41:25
are there some things that India can
41:28
learn in terms of scaling it's you know
41:32
quest of enhancing learning outcomes I'd
41:35
love to get your thoughts in that you
41:38
know I would say for a moment let's no
41:39
even look outside just look within I
41:41
think the Prime Minister is initiative
41:44
on swatch Park is a great example of
41:47
getting the mission mode having a clear
41:52
objective around open defecation or
41:57
defecation freely districts and blocks
42:01
and then providing some support as well
42:04
at the district level to help the system
42:09
but having a clear
42:11
you know goal its measured now you can
42:15
argue that maybe we're measuring the
42:18
I recall alerts were built and maybe the
42:20
behavior change didn't happen but at
42:23
least and even open the behavior change
42:25
I know there was a campaign and work was
42:27
done but I mean it's a classic example
42:31
of how we put into mission mode that was
42:34
someone who is clearly accountable
42:37
highest officer who is driving it states
42:40
and districts were energized once they
42:44
reached a certain milestone they were
42:46
assessed and hikmah was put in front of
42:49
them they were celebrated so you had
42:51
both the demand side incentives where
42:54
people wanted to achieve this goal and
42:57
they understood the goal and then on the
42:59
supply side you had budgets and you had
43:02
some resources and the growl training
43:04
protocols the corporate sector was
43:07
brought in to provide CSR and to the
43:12
extent that that could complement what
43:14
government is doing so I think we need a
43:17
similar we played before in other area
43:20
like sweat spiral and so why can't we do
43:22
it with foundation learning if we put it
43:25
into a similar mission mode Donna um
43:28
Ashish in one of your interviews with
43:31
ton of Qatari you talked about the
43:34
complexity of India say you you spoke
43:37
about the example in Maharashtra for
43:38
example about the challenges of scaling
43:42
quality education there do you think
43:44
central squares aim of ensuring quality
43:48
education can be scaled and if yes how
43:52
can we contextualize it with respect to
43:55
different regions and languages in
43:57
context what I really trying to
43:59
understand is what is the kind of
44:02
building block that will be giving we
44:05
need and what are the kind of
44:06
customizations that we need to do to
44:08
scale quality education yeah so firstly
44:12
we are one of many participants in
44:15
education and I always say we stand on
44:17
the shoulders of others with an
44:18
phenomenal to work in India so I think
44:21
the good news is in India what we may
44:23
not have had system reform you see it
44:26
from the yessir data that learning
44:28
levels really haven't improved much in
44:30
the last fourteen fifteen years what we
44:32
have
44:32
Dinah's is focus of excellent so there
44:35
are several nonprofits that in terms of
44:37
foundational learning you know whether
44:39
it's yon sha-la-la-la or room to be
44:43
returned who have shown that you can
44:49
really improve learning outcomes and
44:51
that reasonable scale and they worked
44:53
with state governments to do it often at
44:57
a district level or a block level so I
44:59
we don't have to even look to Kenya or
45:01
Peru we can say look we have the tools
45:04
we have the methods people have done it
45:06
here now it's a question of how do we
45:08
get the system to invite this as opposed
45:11
to an NGO running its own program how
45:13
can we build the capacity of the system
45:15
how can we white label all the tools how
45:18
come you get the system aligned around
45:20
this so that and make the NGOs the
45:23
technical partner
45:25
as opposed to be implementing body to
45:27
work with state governments to make it
45:29
happen so I think firstly there is an
45:32
overarching playbook right which the
45:35
center can roll out to States and I
45:37
think the good news with the new
45:39
education policy is it not only talks at
45:42
a high level but it has some concrete
45:44
ideas about what could be done in
45:46
foundational and now the government will
45:48
have an implementation plan which the
45:51
center will have in a playbook would
45:53
state I think as you rightly said we are
45:56
very diverse country and states will
45:58
have to contextualize it so you know all
46:01
reading fluency a target may be one in
46:04
one state like behind and in go it may
46:07
be different because the starting points
46:09
are different the language complexity is
46:11
very different to each language etcetera
46:14
the tools will have to differ but I
46:16
think the playbook could be similar and
46:18
then you know the nice thing with India
46:21
is we have NGO partners in different
46:23
scale so every state will obviously have
46:26
their own programs you know derived our
46:30
national mission but the goals you know
46:34
we have a common set of gold we can
46:36
calibrate depending on the state for
46:38
what who cook they need to jump and then
46:41
also a bunch of technical partners in
46:43
each state who can help contextualize
46:45
develop
46:46
materials you know etc so I'm not
46:48
suggesting by any means something
46:50
uniform already each state develops its
46:53
own curriculum etc but you know we can
46:56
ensure that every classroom at least
46:58
gets a teacher guide the appropriate
47:01
workbooks their proper reading material
47:03
for children big books posters you know
47:06
that could be a standard kick but the
47:09
module being local language and could
47:12
naturalize for their context obviously
47:16
what about a deck - sheesh has it
47:20
fulfilled its promise in India someone
47:22
once said that in India you don't have a
47:24
deck you have education solutions and
47:26
tech solutions which people call EdTech
47:28
is that a fair assessment what do you
47:31
think this person is being harsh no I
47:34
think look last firstly initially was
47:38
used more as an enabler you know I think
47:42
mostly texts been used historically
47:45
either it meant computer literacy
47:48
program oh it meant this is your tech
47:52
enabling something right
47:54
even smart class by eight pumpers
47:57
deliver that yeah we'll bring you a
47:59
videos into the classroom kind of thing
48:01
I think what Tech is evolved to now is
48:05
personalized adaptive learning and I
48:08
think that can be quite powerful so is
48:11
it today ready to scale I'm not sure I
48:15
think we need more supply in the
48:19
vernacular which is aimed at India - in
48:21
India tree most of Baidu's and tougher
48:25
and all the for-profit companies still
48:26
cater to the top segment of India do we
48:30
need products we India - India foods
48:32
will next applies with in the vernacular
48:35
need to be either very very cheap or
48:38
free we parents to understand that the
48:44
divide face which needs to be shared I
48:47
mean by juice you can bundle with the
48:49
tab and in an upper income household and
48:51
give it to the child in a low-income
48:53
household they'll be using the fares for
48:55
the involving the parents or teachers
48:58
would be very very different
49:00
next is different so I think we're early
49:03
in the journey of personalized adaptive
49:06
learning for children but I think using
49:08
text tool we can we're ready so I when I
49:13
make some foundation learning could we
49:15
give the teacher an app with her lesson
49:17
plan and some resources yes we can do it
49:21
right now and teachers already up
49:22
smartphone deeksha which is the national
49:25
platform where we have energized
49:27
textbooks with QR codes in each chapter
49:29
could the teacher scan it and get a
49:30
lesson plan and video so to the class
49:33
yes could we get the middle management
49:35
who comes to visit schools you know have
49:38
an app we've developed such apps the
49:42
checklist to observe the classroom and
49:44
get feedback to teachers in a structured
49:45
form or to take videos with the teachers
49:48
they can show it to the Future yes III
49:51
think we can start using technology even
49:54
in the offline program
49:55
and then additionally we can experiment
50:00
with personalized adaptive learning
50:02
build the supply-side build the evidence
50:06
and get ready to scale you know in the
50:09
coming year
50:10
understood let's explore human capital
50:14
development a little bit many states if
50:18
not all states don't really have an HR
50:20
policy or an organizational development
50:22
policy I remember one of your quotes
50:24
once was that I wish sometimes the
50:27
education space ran with the rigor at
50:30
which financial services work
50:32
are we taking steps in this direction of
50:35
ensuring the best teachers have the best
50:37
tools to get there if yes how and if not
50:43
what should we do yeah so I look firstly
50:49
I think on the HR side you've always
50:52
talked about education and you know
50:56
pre-service which is before they become
50:57
teachers performing that is essential
51:00
but it's a you know it will have an
51:02
impact over the next 20 years because
51:04
the attrition is is small so our first
51:07
order of business is how do we improve
51:09
what we already have and I think for
51:12
that we have
51:13
start with some structural changes which
51:16
is right now if you look at the
51:17
Education Department in any state the
51:19
department does everything everything
51:21
from policies to running the school
51:24
system to even figuring out you know
51:26
what the private schools are doing I
51:29
think we need to like any separate you
51:31
look at the reforms in the airline
51:34
sector the utility sector any sector
51:37
telecom sector what we did many years
51:40
ago is we took these departments and we
51:43
carved them out of the three entities
51:44
the department which is responsible for
51:48
policy setting and administration there
51:50
is a body that's responsible for
51:53
execution like BSNL was transferred out
51:56
your companies similarly Maharashtra
51:59
could have a body that runs its school
52:01
system and the one of the reason for
52:04
KB's and and the Nevada with well has
52:06
run well is they have a separate body
52:09
you know that runs it so as opposed to
52:12
an IAS officer who's coming every 1/2
52:15
years and trying to run the school
52:16
system the state could we actually have
52:18
a separate body that runs the school
52:20
system a department that supervises it
52:23
and focuses more on policy and
52:26
separately we need a sort of quality
52:29
assurance body of regulator which
52:31
provides the basic like that regulation
52:35
and quality assurance of both the
52:37
private and public school system in
52:39
India so I think if we looked at it like
52:42
that if you look at telecom you have a
52:44
department you then have you know
52:47
independent providers both private patio
52:50
Airtel Vodafone but also public DSL MTNL
52:54
to similarly private and public
52:55
providers so that efficient and then a
52:58
third is the regulator like prei time
53:00
equivalent back but also ensuring
53:02
quality issuance so I think that says
53:05
systemically a model we need to move to
53:07
the new education policy does allude to
53:09
some of this and then of course once we
53:12
do that look at building capacity at
53:15
different levels and I think we look at
53:17
the kV system or the nd system they do a
53:20
much better job of that because they
53:22
have people at all levels you know
53:25
running the system and they all
53:27
generally homegrown from within the
53:29
system understood in terms of the uptake
53:36
of EdTech in the Cobra doctor math do
53:39
you expect some changes to become
53:42
permanent do you think that the ed tech
53:44
solutions the overall human capacity
53:48
development indicators obviously
53:50
basically getting top talent to teach do
53:53
you think that we'll see some
53:54
fundamental changes if yes what look I
53:58
think that change is already coming I
54:00
think what Cove is doing is its
54:02
accelerating a trend but so yeah if we
54:06
look at say EdTech adoption by parents
54:10
even for in school it is increasing I
54:14
mean I think you're seeing the
54:15
for-profit companies also making their
54:17
products available for 3d making them
54:19
more accessible we've developed at CSF
54:22
some products picked at learn top
54:24
parents which a bunch of state
54:26
governments and telcos and others are
54:28
rolling out because there are free
54:31
resources for children both in the early
54:33
years but also in school but can be used
54:37
at home on the parents smartphone and
54:39
we've seen definitely a lot of increased
54:43
uptake in the recent past but also Chief
54:46
Minister's who've been willing to
54:48
endorse the products that we have
54:49
launched and partly because they want to
54:52
show their work they're doing something
54:54
whilst the children are out of school so
54:56
it's it's clearly provided inroads and
54:58
accelerated what would have been a trend
55:01
otherwise but I do want to lend some
55:04
caution I mean like say if you take
55:07
higher education we're like at a so
55:10
Covey's transition to online teaching
55:13
and and and had to do it quickly now is
55:16
online teaching or substitute for the
55:19
physical I I'm not quite sure I think
55:22
I'd ahsoka you've been in the young
55:24
India fellowship right you know I I
55:27
don't think it's a substitute of having
55:29
a professor who you can engage with who
55:32
is in the classroom or even a peer group
55:35
and the fun of going to college I mean
55:37
if I gone to Yale sitting in my bedroom
55:40
there'll be no
55:41
horrible experience I wouldn't be Who I
55:43
am so let's not get all too far ahead of
55:47
ourselves and also suggest that
55:49
everything's gonna be disruptive I mean
55:51
I think children need to go to school
55:53
they won't be social animals and we you
55:57
know there's so much to learn from your
55:59
peers from your teachers from just the
56:02
discipline of waking up in the morning
56:03
and getting out going to scoop your
56:05
mental health for your parents also who
56:07
need you a way for them to have
56:09
productive lives without you for that so
56:11
I am NOT a big believer that I'm gonna
56:14
Buster Yuki is technology will help it
56:18
will hopefully help right now it's only
56:20
accelerated the learning of the rich or
56:22
the motivated learner and what we need
56:25
instead is to view education technology
56:29
as a tool to bridge the education divide
56:32
as a tool to reduce inequity and that'll
56:37
only happen if we say that look this
56:39
teacher currently cannot lift the tier
56:42
and so half the kids are still not
56:44
succeeding and can I provide some
56:46
remedial tools that will help assist the
56:48
teacher in making that happen
56:51
if we can achieve that and I believe we
56:53
will in the next five to ten years that
56:55
will be the real success better success
56:57
of EdTech is not to take the student
57:00
who's already a motivated learner who's
57:02
going to see BSU ICC's food and helping
57:06
them you know crack some influence exam
57:08
I mean yeah it is for the for-profit
57:11
companies but I think the real success
57:13
would be for those children I told you
57:16
in the SA report who are falling behind
57:17
and we help bridge the gap can we ensure
57:21
that they can learn to read write to
57:23
basic math and we won't be doing it
57:26
alone we'll be doing alongside the
57:28
teacher
57:28
we'll be doing it alongside the parent
57:30
that to me would be the real success
57:33
right thanks Ashish of does it worry you
57:38
that our budgets are on the lower side
57:41
no I don't think so you know a lot of
57:43
people saying I need to spend 6% of GDP
57:46
the government on education let I'm a
57:48
realist
57:49
I mean firstly are attached to GDP is at
57:52
half the level where developed
57:55
steam countries are so so firstly that
57:57
too is our private sector is much larger
57:59
in those countries all public quarters
58:02
so when you add a private and government
58:03
it's well over five percent almost five
58:05
and a half being spent on education and
58:08
so I'm a realist it's not going to
58:10
happen it's not like we're government
58:12
can afford to spend six percent you know
58:15
of GDP the public system card if you
58:18
continue to spend just above three
58:20
percent and that's appropriate we just
58:22
need to make it more efficient
58:24
we need our goals to be clear we need to
58:27
energize the system and I think with the
58:29
same spend as a percent of GDP we can
58:33
achieve amazing results so I'm not one
58:36
to suggest that we ought to increase the
58:38
fiscal envelope with the kind of realist
58:39
everybody else would be doing that in
58:42
fact I think India needs to be using its
58:44
additional fiscal space to build
58:46
infrastructure and to create jobs as
58:50
opposed to putting more money into
58:51
education I think with the same money in
58:54
education we can still achieve the goals
58:57
that we want and by the way other
58:59
countries have done Goddard Ashish every
59:05
time there is a job opening or in
59:07
Central Square Foundation hundreds of
59:11
people from Network capital become super
59:13
curious they schedule time with us to
59:15
prepare so let's hear straight from you
59:18
who makes a solid professional at CSF
59:22
and how can you chart out a career a
59:25
meaningful one and satisfying a
59:28
successful one in the development space
59:30
do you have any thoughts on that yeah so
59:33
look I think CSF is a certain type of
59:35
organization so I can tell you about us
59:37
and I can generalize also I think see I
59:39
said look we are small we are right now
59:42
seventy plus people so obviously we
59:45
don't recruit too many people every year
59:46
I think foundations pay better than NGOs
59:49
so that's attractive foundations often
59:52
you know give you a wider exposure so
59:55
that's often attractive for younger
59:56
people who after copiers want to go to
59:59
grad school so for that profile yeah I
60:03
mean we are sometimes a stepping stone
60:05
sometimes we're about you know I have
60:07
the passion for
60:08
this my parent will let me experiment
60:11
for a couple years before I go to grad
60:12
school and that's fine I understand that
60:15
I didn't later learns what we're looking
60:17
for someone who's completely mission
60:19
line someone who wants to do this for
60:20
the rest of their lives and somebody who
60:22
apparently could have gotten a job
60:24
anywhere but really it's the best talent
60:28
who we want working on these because
60:31
these are hard complex problems
60:33
apparently harder than the problems we
60:35
face in the corporate sector there's no
60:38
way we can solve them with talent that
60:42
is subpar or be degree I'm very focused
60:45
on the quality of talent we have I think
60:48
the sectors of all has seen an
60:49
improvement in the talent coming in as
60:52
more young people have the social
60:54
conscience and want to contribute
60:56
towards improving the country and
61:00
building a new India I think having said
61:04
that they do need to be skilled and
61:07
trained and you know is DM which is
61:09
another institution that I'm involved
61:11
with I'm a founder of in school
61:13
management plays an important role as do
61:17
other programs like many of the
61:18
fellowships I mean that I am you go for
61:20
one year it's like an I am for the
61:22
social sector and now they're coming up
61:24
the new is DM 2.0 which is much more
61:27
focused on management and so we I
61:29
thought there is you know if you really
61:31
want to be a leader in the social sector
61:33
you should be going to an iamb type of
61:35
institution that's customized for the
61:38
sector so programs like that so I am
61:41
quite hopeful that if we can build these
61:43
kinds of initiatives and I'll assess any
61:45
leaders the social sector is another
61:48
program I have start which is more
61:50
focused at corporate crossovers so I
61:53
think we'll see more talent coming in we
61:56
just need to you know get them to
61:59
unlearn a bit and also get them reorient
62:02
it for the sector and give them the
62:04
toolkit to succeed in the sector
62:06
I have been is DM and network Apple
62:10
recently joined hands for for the
62:13
lecture series that you're running and
62:15
the response from the community has been
62:17
phenomenal so I'm really excited by how
62:19
much
62:20
sector appeals to the Millennials and I
62:22
think the two points that you laid out
62:24
in the answer will really help them
62:26
think through which stage they want to
62:27
intervene and what problem they want to
62:29
solve actually is just a final few set
62:32
of questions if you have a few more
62:34
minutes Gordon yeah Ashish is there
62:38
something that you've changed your mind
62:40
about in the education space in India
62:43
you've been doing this now for from for
62:47
a very long time full time would love to
62:51
hear some talks on it yeah I think
62:54
couple of things one is I've become more
62:57
and more convinced that system reform is
63:00
the key I don't think there's a silver
63:02
bullet like you asking human capital is
63:05
just training our future is going to be
63:07
officious sufficient no there is no
63:10
silver bullet I think you need a
63:11
combination of a variety of different
63:13
things and it has to be system led
63:16
otherwise it'll fizzle out so I think
63:18
one thing I have learned is that system
63:22
reform I think is the key and we all
63:25
need to work on of course
63:27
NGOs need to work on developing new
63:29
solutions and showing how can be done
63:31
but I think they need to bring a little
63:33
bit of this system lens to it thinking
63:35
about not just implementing but how do
63:38
they get the system to ship at me is
63:40
very important and therefore the NGO
63:42
played more of a technical partner so
63:44
that's a shift in my thinking that NGOs
63:47
have a very important role to play in
63:48
terms of doing the R&D showing how
63:50
things work developing new tools but
63:53
also can be this transformation to
63:59
system reforming they just have to let
64:02
go of some of their propriety material
64:04
be willing to Whitely we willing to
64:05
co-create with the government and being
64:08
open to partnering and I think they can
64:10
develop that skill set they can get much
64:13
better ROI on their initial investment
64:15
so that's one shift in my thinking a
64:18
second one in education is I think we
64:21
all know this or everybody's very
64:22
focused on school and improving
64:24
schooling children learn so much outside
64:27
of school and so I think focusing on the
64:31
parents early on because parents play an
64:33
important role
64:34
I think and very few people to figure
64:36
out interventions who get the parents
64:40
into the home environment and so if we
64:43
can make some ship there I think that
64:45
would be a game changer I think also
64:48
just making learning more exciting for
64:50
the child and and I think EdTech could
64:53
do some elements of that gamification
64:54
making it fun so that they're being
64:58
exposed to the wider world and learning
65:00
so I think bringing out the best in the
65:02
child and because they are active
65:04
learners they're curious schools
65:06
sometimes kill creativity and can you
65:09
keep that alive through other means
65:11
through exploration
65:12
and then the parents you know can we get
65:14
the parent to play a little bit more
65:16
active role and give them the tools I
65:17
think those are things that maybe
65:19
started to pay more attention to I think
65:22
this idea mission mode and goal setting
65:25
is something that I'm I'm completely
65:28
sold on I think you know I've seen the
65:29
power of it in the last few years as our
65:32
government has driven many different
65:34
missions so if we can if our country
65:37
just says you want to get into mission
65:38
mode if we can define the goals you can
65:40
get people energized I know this will
65:43
happen and so I I hope we do the same
65:45
for foundational learning as well yeah
65:48
there's a final short questions on your
65:50
personal habits I know you don't check
65:54
your phone often that was the first
65:55
thing you told us when you came for your
65:57
lecture tell us some things about your
65:59
habits that have helped that still help
66:01
you learn new things quickly and talk to
66:04
me good about what you do beyond work
66:06
clearly works keeping you very busy but
66:09
give us a flavor of your personality to
66:13
those who don't know you
66:14
yeah so I would say one is I'm still a
66:18
bit of a Luddite person and you know
66:24
almost as a matter of habit I I'm not on
66:27
social I am I have some stupid picture
66:29
of me in a suit on Facebook personal
66:31
secretary uploaded it many years ago and
66:34
I've never even changed I never go to
66:36
Facebook I've never gone to LinkedIn II
66:38
and although I have a profile there I
66:40
signed up for Twitter and got off it
66:43
very quickly because it just was taking
66:45
up too much time
66:46
so I know young people all use social
66:49
media and they should and I'm not I just
66:51
I found it I already had a busy day and
66:55
this is taking up too much time I just
66:57
also felt with social media you know
67:00
when I even Twitter which you know I
67:02
could make the people I wanted to follow
67:05
I was wallowing in other people sports
67:07
and and I don't want to do that you know
67:08
I don't want to just be in the stream of
67:10
new cycle and flow of information it's
67:13
too much already and so I want to
67:15
disconnect a little bit from that so I
67:17
think one is this that's my habit I mean
67:20
I can stay if my phone weren't working
67:23
for like three days that wouldn't be the
67:25
end of the world if I go on vacation I'm
67:27
okay checking things in the morning
67:29
locking my phone is a safe for the whole
67:31
day swimming in the pool hanging out by
67:35
the beach and checking it at night and
67:37
frankly I wouldn't miss anything you
67:39
know somebody I can who ever really
67:42
needs to know has my wife's phone and
67:43
they can find a way to reach me or some
67:45
other phone
67:46
so I've always learned in life that you
67:49
know if you can separate the urgent from
67:51
the important and you can pick so that
67:54
reduce the noise level in your life stay
67:58
away from you have to do it and you have
68:01
to some point respond to email and pick
68:03
up the phone and respond but you're not
68:05
to respond to every phone call you know
68:07
as it comes you just say listen when I'm
68:09
going to work in the morning or coming
68:11
back in the evening I'll respond and
68:13
maybe something's really important I'll
68:14
take you doing the day so I always like
68:17
the fact that you know puppets sits in
68:18
his office all day long you reach 500
68:20
pages
68:21
barely answers the phone I mean that to
68:25
me is like an ideal way to get work done
68:27
you know just to be in the zone to be
68:30
focused to not be distracted so that's
68:32
one habit too is I like sort of working
68:36
in bursts so like right now the global
68:40
economy is in tatters and I have not
68:41
focused on investing for many years my
68:44
brother runs we have a family investment
68:46
office and I feel it's important right
68:48
now for me to stay on top of investments
68:50
in addition to doing my normal work so I
68:52
wake up at 4:30 every day and from 4:30
68:54
to body 30 I stay on top of investments
68:58
you know I what's on going on globally
69:00
I read up on companies that track
69:03
sectors and that's for our sort of
69:05
nonstop endeavor so just like working
69:09
these chunks keep the noise away just
69:13
chunks of work nothing distracted that's
69:16
worked well for me and you know I I like
69:22
having fun at work so I'm I like joking
69:24
around I can be very serious and and
69:27
drive accountability and express a lot
69:29
of displeasure but I'm also quite
69:31
non-hierarchical and an easygoing right
69:34
I think that has worked with my
69:36
personality but I also I feel made me
69:39
effective in in my style as far as fun
69:42
is his son you know I I like going to
69:46
the gym quite regularly helps me clear
69:49
my head and be more much more effective
69:52
I mean right now at home my I still
69:54
exercise every day I play badminton I
69:57
play some cricket with my son so I think
69:59
sport and spin is important to me I love
70:04
beer and so I have a beer every day and
70:07
I'm an expert on beer and I like I can't
70:11
socialize now but I'll still enjoy my
70:14
drink and you know catch up with friends
70:17
over zoom but I prefer to do it in the
70:19
real world and then you know in terms of
70:23
interests I mean I I like sort of music
70:26
from the 80s when I grew up and I you
70:30
know I like I have some reading
70:31
interests which I sort of keep up but
70:33
yeah I mean I I do work pretty hard but
70:38
you know I I believe that you gotta have
70:41
you live one life so you have to have a
70:43
lot of fun I mean I want to be able to
70:45
go out and and see friends and and dance
70:48
and enjoy music and you know do all they
70:52
have lots of fun vacations so a life
70:55
would be to sorta film to miss out on
70:57
all that Ashley this was so much fun
71:00
thank you so much for your time and
71:02
favour inside this goes out to almost a
71:06
million people now
71:07
and I'm sure whether they're Indian
71:09
South Asians or people in the West
71:12
they'll have a ton to reflect and learn
71:14
really appreciate your time and I hope
71:17
you don't panic work during the covert
71:19
crisis and I hope we get to meet in
71:21
fashion but blood soon absolutely you
71:24
know thank you so much and it's so much
71:27
fun to do this with you and you know so
71:30
proud that as an Ashoka grad and a why
71:33
I've grabbed you you've done amazing
71:35
things in your life but most importantly
71:38
you're doing this
71:41
thank you I should I keep learning from
71:42
the best like you it's it's really fun
71:45
see you see you very soon
Your Network Capital Team
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